I was interviewed for the Collectivitis podcast yesterday run by the wonderful Pietro Angeli from the Ballarat branch of the Libertarian Party. We discussed my ‘journey to libertarianism’. I discuss the unlikely path of child birth as the first 'big push' and the corona crisis as the second (and how I still believe in old Left ideas) . We discuss gender critical feminism, left libertarianism, the destruction of independent midwifery, big and small government, state coercion, cancel culture and my forthcoming book
Loved this interview! Wow, so eye opening to hear about the barrister not being able to represent you because she was worried about the fall out for herself and her business. Says so much. Crazy that you were congratulated for your article in response to the terrible treatment towards J K Rowling, and then they took that back and censored your article! Love your work x
I found this such a rich and thoughtful interview Petra. I loved hearing about your journey, and how you have been grappling with the ideological slide of much of the Left into intolerance and totalitarianism, as well as the conversation around libertarianism. It's so refreshing to hear you bring thoughtful and nuanced intelligence to these questions, as it's something I've really missed in the feverish, ideologically divided atmosphere of the last few years. I was an active member of the Greens for over 15 years, resigning in 2021 following the party's embrace of vaccine mandates. Since then I've felt, like many, 'politically homeless', questioning many of my previously held beliefs and trying to figure out where I stood in a world that seemed to have gone crazy.
As in your case, I've always had a significant libertarian/heterodox streak, with left wing parents who sent us to small private alternative schools and used homeopathy and Chinese medicine at home. The advent of the 'Intellectual Dark Web' theorists in the late 2010s was significant for me, particularly Daniel Schmachtenberger, and brought me around to a more thoughtful and nuanced engagement with social and economic theories. Also my journey of healing from a health crisis in my 20s brought me to significant personal and spiritual development, and a very different worldview from that of the virus-obsessed social distancers of 2020 - 2022. For me, and I suspect many others, having a relationship with my intuition/higher self/the Divine helped me surrender and act from a place of trust and curiosity during that time, rather than becoming encased in a wall of fear. (This trust didn't mean recklessness, nor denying the possible dangers of Covid, but more of a middle path of doing what I could to be prepared and staying resolute in my humanity and the rightness of staying physically connected to my friends, family and community wherever I could).
Anyhow I really appreciated your reflections on what it means to be libertarian to you, and also the very dangerous drift of the institutional left into extremism and sophistry in recent years. A couple of observations I wanted to make: firstly, I think there has always been an aspect of the left that has been intolerant, fanatical and prone to delusion and fanaticism. I well remember having a couple of fruitless interactions with International Socialists in my Uni student days, who seemed to have left their ability to think behind when they signed up, and also the mural on the wall of a student centre at La Trobe University extolling the virtues of the Shining Path Maoist rebel movement in Peru, a group whose fanatical ideology and murderous terrorism was reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge. However to tar everyone on the left with this brush, as some do, is dishonest and appears to me to be a rhetorical device to push a pre-existing rightist ideological barrow. For every fanatical Robespierre or Pol Pot there have been many politically and socially active thinkers, activists and politicians who have worked to bring timely positive change to the world through peaceful means. I also think that you are spot on in observing that censoriousness and paternalism used to be more the province of conservatives than progressives, from the anti-war movement during WWI to the 'red scare' of the 1950s to the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 70s to name a few.
Secondly, regarding libertarianism, I see much to value and respect in this philosophy, and I think in many ways it is on the right track and is indicative of the society towards which we are heading; in particular I believe that we desperately need to critique and reverse the trend of over-regulation and 'safetyism' that are having an increasingly negative impact on our society. But I think we also need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and swing to the opposite extreme by doing away with all government regulation. For example would we be comfortable with a return to a 19th century world where children were sent to work in coal mines, workers in many industries worked 12 hours a day for pittance and in dangerous conditions, often dying as a result through accidents or disease, and where people could sell fake products, possibly even laced with dangerous ingredients, falsely labeled as medicine - and where there was no protection against any of this for the average person? I believe in well-targeted regulation, while recognising that it is doomed to failure unless the social 'soil' is enriched so that people feel they have a real say in the laws that are created (increased participatory democracy and decentralisation), feel that they can meet them without being impoverished (fair price for labour and goods) and care about their fellow community members (support and cultivate community, ethical living and reverence for life).
Thirdly, in regard to the welfare state, I take your host's points about how it has become a substitute for community in our society, and in some respects I think it is both a symptom of, and a contributor to the breakdown in our community fabric. Yet I think taking the welfare state away without addressing social and economic disempowerment would be disastrous. I think we need to address the underlying causes of this 'malaise of modernity' through promoting and encouraging a strengthening of civil society, and in particular promoting decentralisation and the empowerment of both communities and individuals - Vern Hughes and his Conservative Party have some interesting and worthwhile ideas on this, ideas which build on the 'middle path' distributivist tradition of social theory that dates back to the 19th Century.
Lastly, I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the theory of social threefolding, developed by Rudolf Steiner in the early 20th century? He argues that, in order to respond to the evolutionary stage of humanity as it is in our time, we need to differentiate society into three separate but interdependent spheres of activity: the cultural sphere, which is guided by the principle of liberty, the political/rights sphere, which is guided by the principle of equality, and the economic sphere, which is guided by the principle of fraternity, or voluntary association. The beauty of this model is that it encapsulates both progressivism and libertarianism in the one picture, where they belong and where they will support human flourishing. There's a whole lot more to the theory than that, but as a way of meeting the challenge of integrating the desire for social health and cohesion with a respect for human agency and liberty, I think it's well worth exploring.
Loved this interview! Wow, so eye opening to hear about the barrister not being able to represent you because she was worried about the fall out for herself and her business. Says so much. Crazy that you were congratulated for your article in response to the terrible treatment towards J K Rowling, and then they took that back and censored your article! Love your work x
Thanks, Cathy! Yes, it’s such an upside down world now. Appreciate your support always. ❤️
I found this such a rich and thoughtful interview Petra. I loved hearing about your journey, and how you have been grappling with the ideological slide of much of the Left into intolerance and totalitarianism, as well as the conversation around libertarianism. It's so refreshing to hear you bring thoughtful and nuanced intelligence to these questions, as it's something I've really missed in the feverish, ideologically divided atmosphere of the last few years. I was an active member of the Greens for over 15 years, resigning in 2021 following the party's embrace of vaccine mandates. Since then I've felt, like many, 'politically homeless', questioning many of my previously held beliefs and trying to figure out where I stood in a world that seemed to have gone crazy.
As in your case, I've always had a significant libertarian/heterodox streak, with left wing parents who sent us to small private alternative schools and used homeopathy and Chinese medicine at home. The advent of the 'Intellectual Dark Web' theorists in the late 2010s was significant for me, particularly Daniel Schmachtenberger, and brought me around to a more thoughtful and nuanced engagement with social and economic theories. Also my journey of healing from a health crisis in my 20s brought me to significant personal and spiritual development, and a very different worldview from that of the virus-obsessed social distancers of 2020 - 2022. For me, and I suspect many others, having a relationship with my intuition/higher self/the Divine helped me surrender and act from a place of trust and curiosity during that time, rather than becoming encased in a wall of fear. (This trust didn't mean recklessness, nor denying the possible dangers of Covid, but more of a middle path of doing what I could to be prepared and staying resolute in my humanity and the rightness of staying physically connected to my friends, family and community wherever I could).
Anyhow I really appreciated your reflections on what it means to be libertarian to you, and also the very dangerous drift of the institutional left into extremism and sophistry in recent years. A couple of observations I wanted to make: firstly, I think there has always been an aspect of the left that has been intolerant, fanatical and prone to delusion and fanaticism. I well remember having a couple of fruitless interactions with International Socialists in my Uni student days, who seemed to have left their ability to think behind when they signed up, and also the mural on the wall of a student centre at La Trobe University extolling the virtues of the Shining Path Maoist rebel movement in Peru, a group whose fanatical ideology and murderous terrorism was reminiscent of the Khmer Rouge. However to tar everyone on the left with this brush, as some do, is dishonest and appears to me to be a rhetorical device to push a pre-existing rightist ideological barrow. For every fanatical Robespierre or Pol Pot there have been many politically and socially active thinkers, activists and politicians who have worked to bring timely positive change to the world through peaceful means. I also think that you are spot on in observing that censoriousness and paternalism used to be more the province of conservatives than progressives, from the anti-war movement during WWI to the 'red scare' of the 1950s to the sexual revolution of the 1960s and 70s to name a few.
Secondly, regarding libertarianism, I see much to value and respect in this philosophy, and I think in many ways it is on the right track and is indicative of the society towards which we are heading; in particular I believe that we desperately need to critique and reverse the trend of over-regulation and 'safetyism' that are having an increasingly negative impact on our society. But I think we also need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and swing to the opposite extreme by doing away with all government regulation. For example would we be comfortable with a return to a 19th century world where children were sent to work in coal mines, workers in many industries worked 12 hours a day for pittance and in dangerous conditions, often dying as a result through accidents or disease, and where people could sell fake products, possibly even laced with dangerous ingredients, falsely labeled as medicine - and where there was no protection against any of this for the average person? I believe in well-targeted regulation, while recognising that it is doomed to failure unless the social 'soil' is enriched so that people feel they have a real say in the laws that are created (increased participatory democracy and decentralisation), feel that they can meet them without being impoverished (fair price for labour and goods) and care about their fellow community members (support and cultivate community, ethical living and reverence for life).
Thirdly, in regard to the welfare state, I take your host's points about how it has become a substitute for community in our society, and in some respects I think it is both a symptom of, and a contributor to the breakdown in our community fabric. Yet I think taking the welfare state away without addressing social and economic disempowerment would be disastrous. I think we need to address the underlying causes of this 'malaise of modernity' through promoting and encouraging a strengthening of civil society, and in particular promoting decentralisation and the empowerment of both communities and individuals - Vern Hughes and his Conservative Party have some interesting and worthwhile ideas on this, ideas which build on the 'middle path' distributivist tradition of social theory that dates back to the 19th Century.
Lastly, I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the theory of social threefolding, developed by Rudolf Steiner in the early 20th century? He argues that, in order to respond to the evolutionary stage of humanity as it is in our time, we need to differentiate society into three separate but interdependent spheres of activity: the cultural sphere, which is guided by the principle of liberty, the political/rights sphere, which is guided by the principle of equality, and the economic sphere, which is guided by the principle of fraternity, or voluntary association. The beauty of this model is that it encapsulates both progressivism and libertarianism in the one picture, where they belong and where they will support human flourishing. There's a whole lot more to the theory than that, but as a way of meeting the challenge of integrating the desire for social health and cohesion with a respect for human agency and liberty, I think it's well worth exploring.
Thanks for this rich and deeply engaged comment Keppel. We are kindred spirits! I will respond to this properly in a bit.
Thanks Sarah. ❤️